UPROOTED and the Generation Gap in Fantasy

That's an interesting thought, and I'll be equally interested to see how people respond. In truth, I didn't like that, either, nor did I care for the way older man and the inexperienced young girl (another staple of older fiction), or the extremely high body count. But the latter seems to be de rigor these days, and the second one accepted more often than not.

So I shrug and read around it. Did I enjoy it? Yes! Will I reread it? (Which is my definition of "award worthy") Probably not. I don't think it had enough to say to go in against to read around these elements, but that first read was a real page turner.

This is a fascinating theory-- I could certainly see it being the case. I'm definitely more aware of this issue now, and more critical of it, but like you, I read a LOT of fantasy as a kid that included this stuff, so I do think I may be more tolerant of it. I did enjoy UPROOTED specifically because it reminded me of my childhood favorites, even as some elements are problematic (just like some elements of my childhood faves remain problematic).

I don't know if the generation gap idea holds up, because -- anecdata -- most of the friends who told me they loved it are my age or younger.

I don't judge anyone who loved it, because the reading id wants what the reading id wants, but in all the discussion around it, I would have liked to know in advance that it is literally more rapey than GoT. (The books, not the TV series -- most of the rape in the novels is talked about, and the effects seen, but the reader doesn't directly experience them.) And, for me, it's a masterclass in How Not To Write Mentor/Apprentice.

But I think you're right about why it won the Nebula -- and I'm glad that's cleared up, because it was a complete mystery to me, when this story has been told so many times by contemporary YA authors, and told better.

(here from the homepage, I hope this is okay!)

I find this a really interesting discussion as someone who read the book and disliked it for exactly the reasons the people you talked to disliked it, but who also grew up reading the same type of books as you. (I'm 31, but my small-town library didn't have access to newly-published books, so the sci-fi & fantasy section was several decades behind and almost exclusively male-authored, sigh. When I found the stuff people my age grew up with I was too old to appreciate it for what it was.)

For me, I found the sexual assault & gender relations stuff in Uprooted such a harsh throwback to the books I'd choked down as a teenager (while at the time feeling uncomfortable but not having the vocabulary to explain why for a while) that that's why I couldn't deal with it in Uprooted. I thought we'd moved past this, to stories where I didn't have to feel that awful lump in my throat while reading; it knocked me right back to those years when I scarfed down awful, awful media because it was the only thing I had and I'd become inured to it out of sheer necessity. To feel that again while reading a book by an author I love in 2015 was not a pleasant experience.

(At the same time, everyone I know loves it -- even the friend I gave it to saying READ THIS SO WE CAN BE MAD TOGETHER -- and the prose is beautiful. When I heard it won a Nebula I thought 'oh well' because it's not what I would have chosen, but that's okay. However, it's also been an oddly alienating experience, especially when I hear people describe it as a love letter to fans and fandom, tailor-made to stir fans up and give them everything they want in a story -- it's weird to realize a book has been written for a specific audience and that audience is Not You.)

I was slightly disappointed by "Uprooted", but more because I just didn't care for it much than because of the "dismissivel attitude to sexual assault". It's been awhile since I read it, but I think it just didn't come across as dismissive, but rather as a portrayal of the very real way women were treated in the time this book was set (or at least the 'real world' equivalent).

(I'm 36 btw, but probably also grew up reading other fantasy books).

"I didn't love X because it's gross and problematic, and if you like X anyway, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU."
I don't mind hearing that not everybody likes the same things I like. I do very much mind being made to feel that I am a lesser person, indeed a morally inferior one in desperate need of enlightenment, for liking them.
YES! Thank you! I get that a LOT because I like Twilight (and actually also because I don't like Lord of the Rings). It gets old :-/

I'm actually very happy that there is a generation of readers who aren't happy to put up with [sexual violence, erasure of women, racist tropes] in order to 'get to the good stuff' and accept that that's the price of admission. But I also think that It's ok to like problematic things as long as you're aware they're problematic. I don't judge people who like books that also have problems, but I do judge how they're engaging with problematic content. (Saying 'I cannot deal with this' is fine from where I'm standing; saying 'there's no problem' (or worse, attacking the people who call out those problems) isn't.)

I think what the discussion sometimes lacks is an assumption of good faith: that liking something doesn't mean you can't see its flaws or aren't willing to discuss them, and that pointing out flaws in something you like doesn't mean that the other party hates YOU.

But I also think we need to acknowledge that in a day and age where saying 'I don't like this thing, it's sexist/racist/transphobic' will get you death threats on the internet (this happens more in gaming than books; but it's frustratingly common) people who want to call out problems are wary and defensive because they have run into a lot of explosive, over-the-top and often violent reactions from hardcore fans who will defend their choice of entertainment with all means 'necessary' - up to, and including, violence.

I'm 28 & loved Uprooted, fwiw. On the other hand, my fantasy formation did start pretty young & before the explosion of YA that's out there today.

I know there are strong feelings about this one, and I do see why. But for me, there are also reasons to love it, and I agree that it's possible to acknowledge that there are problems and continue to love a thing with full knowledge that it's not perfect.

More generally than this specific title, I think that often People On The Internet forget that part of being a fan of problematic things is still being a fan. (And I don't want to downplay or judge anyone else's reaction--people get to nope out of something anytime for any reason. But that has to go both ways.)

Well, I'm older than you, and I pretty much loved Uprooted, though I do have problems with high body counts and I thought the Dragon was a jerk through much of the story. But here's the thing-

I read it as the story of a young woman gaining in confidence, wisdom, and power. The near-rape almost slid by me because that was my focus. I also loved the setting and the way the language was used, and I LOVED that Agniezca's friend was a heroine in her own right and had a role to play. Finally, I loved that this was a story about discovering and righting the wrongs of the past. The "bad guys" - the evil forest - had a point of view, too. And the Dragon, in the end, grew up a bit. Heck, I loved that ending.

But I do understand why people would be repelled by the way the Dragon treated Agniezca (sp?). What I don't understand are the critics - again, mostly young women - who see her as a Mary Sue. What? I don't get that at all.

Oh, I wanted to add that I So Agree with you about Thomas Covenant. I read the first one and then just stopped.

Ugh. I tried to read Lord Foul's Bane when I was younger (I can't remember if it was when I was in college or high school or what) and I didn't much like him before he raped her, and the moment that happened, I said, "Nuh-uh," and put it down. I'm 39, for generational reference. :D

I haven't yet read Uprooted. I've read glowing reviews, and I've read reviews critical of the problematic issues, and it's still on my list of books to read. I guess we'll see. :D

As always, I greatly enjoy the thoughtful discussion here. I have really enjoyed Novik's other books and I think I'll give this one a try also. I can't contribute much to the discussion because I'm old(er) and when y'all were reading fantasy in the 70s and 80s, I was devouring murder mysteries. But I understand that certain tropes are common to certain eras as I watched the progression from golden age mysteries to stories I really can't enjoy much. I do wonder, though, why with all the concern over a supposed "rape-culture" on college campuses, a heroine having to deal with a rape attempt would make a book off limits. I find myself often at sea trying to navigate the shoals of modern thought. I can understand not wanting to read a book with that element in it as I personally don't like stories with rape in them either (although I can stomach non-graphic attempted rape), but I don't understand why something that is a time-less evil would be considered off-limits as an element of a story.

I think I'm in the same boat as a lot of people who read this book -- I felt that it was good... but didn't quite live up to the hype. I'm in the younger audience range (24), and I really cringed at the attempted rape scene, but ultimately, my problems with the book went far deeper than just that scene. Well... "problems" probably isn't the right word, since most of the issues I had were just taste-related. I'm a character person, and Nieska and the Dragon just weren't hitting it off with me, so I read mostly for Kasia, who I thought was really awesome. And it was only near the end, when the plot really picked up that I started to get into the swing of things. I think I was mostly underwhelmed because many of the fantasy books I've read and really loved usually had major twists near the end (ala Sanderson or Turner), but Uprooted was just really straightforward. Up until the end, I was half-convinced that Nieska was actually corrupted by the wood during her first visit, and that the remainder of the book was just some hallucination she was projecting on the readers. =/

I found your post really interesting! I don't have many friends who are avid readers, so it's nice to see the opinions of someone who's been reading for a while, and to get the kind of insight on how the trends in the publishing industry and readership tastes have evolved over time. I think when it comes to dealbreakers, it's really a matter of Your Mileage Might Vary. And it also depends on the issue as well, and how it's handled. There are certain tropes that I don't mind coming across, depending on how the author handles it, and then there are those that would just make me put the book down regardless of how an author approaches it. I also think that one of the factors influencing readers today is just the number of books out there. I can imaging that with the rise of independent publishing and digital platforms like Wattpad and FictionPress, readers know that they don't have to stick with a book if they don't want to. There's always something else to read, and there's always a chance they'll come across something better and more worth their time.