18 July 2005 @ 06:04 pm
Of basins and lockets, Dumbledore and Snape  
Or, in other words, the refined version of the theories I've been expounding on for the past week or so, in one handy linkable place (for those of you who've been asking if they could link). Thanks to everyone who contributed suggestions, objections, and questions for me to answer -- the idea has been much improved and refined in the process.

THE (HOR)CRUX OF THE MATTER

In which it is proposed that the basin full of potion that Harry and Dumbledore found in the cave was itself a horcrux, and that the locket lying in the bottom of said basin was merely a red herring, planted there by Dumbledore to prevent Harry realizing what was really going on. It is further proposed that Dumbledore had been aware of this horcrux and its nature for years, and had long ago come to the conclusion that in order to destroy it he would have to drink it, necessitating that someone kill him in order to complete the destruction of said horcrux. It is finally proposed that Dumbledore was keeping Snape in reserve for this very task of killing him, and that in Book Seven Snape will be proven to have been acting solely on Dumbledore's orders with a view to Voldemort's ultimate defeat, and is therefore not guilty of murder or betrayal (in this case, anyway).
Thus the theory: now for the evidence. Page references, where included, are from the Raincoast/Bloomsbury edition.

Professor Dumbledore's Sense of Horcruxes

It may help us to recall that Dumbledore did not require Harry to extract Slughorn's full memory of his conversation with Tom Riddle in order to know that Voldemort had split his soul into a number of horcruxes, nor even in order to know what many of those horcruxes were. The fact that Dumbledore had already drawn accurate conclusions about these matters can be discerned from the pensieve memories he shows Harry, specifically highlighting the ways in which Voldemort obtained the locket, the ring, and the cup, before Harry even knows what a horcrux is. Clearly Dumbledore is leading Harry down a path of knowledge that he himself already trod a long time ago.

As such, the campaign of sending Harry to extract the true memory from Slughorn was for Harry's benefit far more than Dumbledore's. Dumbledore had already been looking for Voldemort's horcruxes for years -- in fact, as he says, ever since the events of CoS when he realized the Diary had been a horcrux and that there must be more of them if Voldemort were prepared to be so cavalier with the first one (p. 467). As he says, "I have been hoping for this piece of evidence [Slughorn's memory] for a very long time... it confirms the theory on which I have been working..."

So, if Dumbledore has been searching for the horcruxes for some time already, it is not unreasonable to conclude that he would have discovered some of them by now -- very possibly including the one in the cave. Note that although Dumbledore says in his conversation with Harry that he believes Voldemort did not succeed in obtaining anything of Gryffindor's to complete the set of relics belonging to the Founders (based on his statement that the sword Harry used to kill the basilisk in CoS is the only Gryffindor relic remaining and that it has always been kept safe from Voldemort) he does not make the same confident assertion about Ravenclaw. In fact, he says "I cannot answer for whether [Voldemort] ever managed to find anything of Ravenclaw's." But I cannot answer is not the same as I do not know. Is it possible that the strange substance in the basin was a potion or other magical liquid belonging to Rowena Ravenclaw, or at least that Dumbledore suspected it was?

If so, it is also possible that Dumbledore had been aware of the Ravenclaw liquid's existence and nature for some time, and come to the conclusion that if Voldemort had turned that particular relic into a horcrux, Dumbledore would have to drink it and then die (either by killing himself or being killed) in order for that particular horcrux to be destroyed. And note, even if Dumbledore did not know the precise location of the Ravenclaw relic, that would not prevent him from learning about it nor from making thorough plans to destroy it when it was found.

The idea that Dumbledore was previously aware of the potion's nature seems to be borne out by his behaviour when he and Harry find the basin. Indeed, even before they reach the island where the basin stands, Dumbledore has already made plain to Harry that he needs Harry to obey his orders without hesitation or question no matter what those orders may be, and refuses to give up until he has Harry's word on the matter, which strongly indicates that Dumbledore knows or suspects that he will have to ask Harry to do something that Harry otherwise would not be willing to do. And when Dumbledore finally finds the potion, he seems to know an awful lot about its properties with very little preamble (something Harry puts down to his formidable powers, but could equally be due to thorough study and foreknowledge), and he also conjures a crystal goblet which he seems to have been keeping in reserve and which just happens to be sufficient to penetrate the barrier and allow him to drink. I am not sure that any old cup would have done the job in this case: it may well be that this goblet, too, was something of Rowena's that was meant to accompany the liquid in the basin.

The behavior of Dumbledore on drinking the liquid is also strongly suggestive of the idea that the liquid itself is a missing piece of Voldemort's soul, and not merely a poison or other painful deterrent. The text describes him as speaking "in a voice Harry did not recognize", and the things he cries out sound more like the words of a boy or a young man (such as Voldemort would have been when he created the horcruxes) than anything Dumbledore would say. Of course, phrases like "I don't want... don't make me ... don't like... want to stop... I don't want to... let me go... make it stop... I can't..." might be said by anyone in severe pain, even an elderly wizard, but what about the following:
"It's all my fault, all my fault... please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and I'll never, never again..."

"Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead..."

"I want to die, I want to die, make it stop, I want to die!"

"KILL ME!"
Is it possible that by putting these strange words and sentiments in Dumbledore's mouth (particularly things such as "I know I did wrong" and "Don't hurt them, please"), JKR means us to understand, or at least guess, that Dumbledore is speaking for someone else, that he has taken something inside him that is not his own? Dumbledore has told Harry before that Voldemort wished to rid himself of such troublesome human emotions and impulse as fear, guilt, concern for others, and most of all (as JKR has confirmed in an interview as recent as this week) the desire for death. Could the horcrux in the basin have contained, or at least represented in part, those particular elements of Voldemort's soul?

The Basin and the Locket

Of course, we are left with the question of what the locket was doing in the bottom of the basin, if the liquid Dumbledore drank was the real horcrux and he knew this to be the case all along. Allow me to suggest that Regulus A[lphard] Black, who had destroyed the locket horcrux shortly before his death back in 1980, was never anywhere near that cave, or that basin.

After all, if the locket was the cave's true treasure, Regulus would not only have had to be a wizard equal in power and stamina to Dumbledore (unlikely) but would have had to have an accomplice come with him to reach the island (something Dumbledore says would not be possible if the accomplice was a full-grown, fully accomplished wizard -- Harry only gets across because he has not come of age), and help/force him to drink down the basin's contents. Then, after drinking the contents of the basin and obtaining the locket horcrux from the bottom, Regulus would have had to somehow replace the basin's contents with a volume and character of liquid equal to the one he had drunk, which is sheer madness considering he could just as easily have left his fake locket and taunting note sitting in the bottom of the empty basin and still obtained the same effect. And then, of course, there would be the difficulty of getting back across the lake and out again with his accomplice so that he/they could destroy the horcrux -- a task which would also require tremendous power on the part of the potion-weakened Regulus (and we still haven't figured out how he'd get his wizardly accomplice in the boat). On the whole, it seems much more logically tenable that the locket and R.A.B.'s note were brought into the cave from some other location, and that Regulus (if it is Regulus we're talking about, and given that JKR has pointedly mentioned him in both OotP and this book, it does not seem unreasonable to assume that it is) was never in the cave at all.

What I'd like to propose instead is that the original, real Slytherin locket containing the horcrux had been placed in the care of Mrs. Black at Grimmauld Place, to her considerable pride, and displayed in her cabinet along with other dark relics of distinction. Very likely the late Mrs. Black did not realize the locket was a horcrux: but she wouldn't need to know its true nature in order to guard it fiercely. For that, Voldemort's mere word and the implication that he was trusting in her to keep it safe would be sufficient.

Regulus Black, however, learned of the locket's true nature and set out to destroy it. It is possible that Regulus was a protégé of Dumbledore's all along, always intended to act as a spy in the Death Eater camp -- a sort of predecessor of Severus Snape. But whether he was always Dumbledore's man or whether he joined the DE's sincerely at first and then regretted and repented of the decision, there came a point at which he determined to get rid of the locket horcrux (apparently under the misapprehension that there was only one horcrux and that destroying it would make Voldemort truly mortal again). As has been pointed out by others, the things we learn of Regulus in HBP -- including that Slughorn marked him out for special attention -- seem to indicate that he had a great deal more power and intelligence than Sirius gave him credit for in OotP.

So, Regulus breaks whatever protective spells lie on his mother's cabinet of dark objects, and steals the locket horcrux. In its place, he leaves a false locket -- one that could easily be mistaken for the real one at a cursory glance, if one were merely expecting to see some sort of locket there, but which would not stand up to close inspection -- with a taunting note inside telling Voldemort that he has taken the true horcrux and destroyed it.

Years later, on his quest for horcruxes, Dumbledore finds or is given the true Slytherin locket, and sees that its horcrux contents have been destroyed. On one of his visits to Grimmauld Place (which Regulus no doubt imagined would always be a Dark stronghold, thus making it a logical place to leave a note for Voldemort), Dumbledore also discovers the false locket sitting in the cabinet, and the note enclosed. He takes the fake and leaves the real one, now empty of its horcrux, in its place -- this is the heavy locket nobody could open which is found during the cleaning of Grimmauld Place in the opening chapters of OotP. (Another possibility is that Snape was in some way involved with Regulus, possibly even helping Regulus destroy the horcrux, and gave Dumbledore the Slytherin locket or advised him of its location after the fact.)

Now we have Dumbledore and Harry in the cave, and Dumbledore needs Harry to force-feed him the liquid in the basin. If Harry suspects that the liquid is the horcrux, he may also suspect that drinking it will destroy Dumbledore, in which case he will feel himself guilty of Dumbledore's death for forcing him to drink it (assuming he can even bring himself to do so). Better for Harry to think it a dangerous, painful, but not necessarily fatal potion that merely conceals the real horcrux beneath. So, as Dumbledore mutters unknown phrases over the potion and makes passes over it with his wand, he either Summons, or simply drops out of his sleeve, Regulus's false locket. Then he tells Harry that the liquid in the basin must be drunk to reach the horcrux, and that it may temporarily incapacitate him and/or cause him great pain to drink his way down to the bottom, but that Voldemort did not intend the potion to be fatal and that all will be well if Harry only carries out his part of the bargain.

Dumbledore and Snape

Having drunk the liquid horcrux and taken that part of Voldemort's sundered soul into his own body, Dumbledore returns with Harry to Hogwarts. Note that upon arrival the very first person he asks for is not Pomfrey (as we would expect if he wished for healing/treatment), nor McGonagall (as would be natural if he were concerned with the administration and welfare of the school), but Snape. In fact, he is positively insistent that Snape, and only Snape, can help him and that he must see Snape immediately.

Of course, it might be that Dumbledore expects Snape to have or be able to brew an antidote to the potion he drank out of the basin; this desperate urgency on Dumbledore's part in itself is not proof that the liquid was the horcrux and that he needs Snape to kill him in order to complete its destruction. But coupled with the argument Hagrid reported Snape and Dumbledore as having had earlier, in which Snape tried to get out of doing something Dumbledore had requested of him and Dumbledore was adamant that he must follow through, it sounds as though the two of them had a prior agreement of some sort that Snape, at least, found distasteful, and the idea that Dumbledore had appointed Snape to kill him once he drank the horcrux would certainly fit into this category.

When Dumbledore and Snape finally meet, Dumbledore's reaction is also suggestive. Seeing Snape burst onto the top of the tower, wand in hand, Dumbledore shows no fear or suspicion of him (which ties in with the frequently repeated idea that Dumbledore trusts Snape absolutely). He clearly does not fear that Snape has turned against him or will betray him. So why, then, does he say so softly, "Severus..." in what Harry describes as a pleading tone, and then "Severus... please...."? Harry sees Snape's face contorted with "revulsion and hatred", which he (of course) assumes is his attitude toward Dumbledore, but given the absolute nature of Dumbledore's trust in Snape, a trust whose basis he does not feel free to reveal to Harry or indeed anyone, but which he regards as beyond question (see pg. 513), is it not just as likely or more so that Snape's expression is one of revulsion and hatred at himself for having to kill Dumbledore in this way? After all, Harry has a very long history of misinterpreting people's expressions and tones of voice -- particularly where Snape is concerned -- and of assigning blame where it may or may not belong. As such his interpretation of the situation is suspect at best, and it may well be too hasty to leap to the obvious conclusion (as indeed everybody does, once Dumbledore is dead) that Snape was Ever So Evil all along, and only biding his chance to kill Dumbledore once he was helpless.

Going all the way back to the "Spinner's End" chapter at the beginning of the book, we find Snape shocking Bella by readily agreeing to take over Draco's task, regardless of the cost to himself, should Draco fail. It is interesting to note that when Snape draws the curtains and assumes his air of confidence with Narcissa, assuring her that the Dark Lord has informed him of his plans involving Draco, there is every likelihood that he in fact knows nothing of the plan and is merely bluffing. This is borne out by the fact that he does not supply or fill in any of the details of this plan, only makes vague allusions to it and waits for the Black sisters to enlighten him. Fortunately both Narcissa and Bella fall for it, supplying Snape with all the necessary details to figure out that Draco has been dispatched to kill Dumbledore. And although Snape hesitates visibly -- to the point that Bella taunts him -- when Narcissa begs him to watch over Draco and take his place if necessary, ultimately he does not resist taking the Unbreakable Vow. This would of course make sense if Snape truly hated Dumbledore, was every ounce the traitor to the Order that he portrays himself to Bella as being -- but it would make even more sense if Snape had already given Dumbledore his promise to kill him, and thus knew that making the Unbreakable Vow to do so would only strengthen his cover with Bella and the DE's as a whole, without committing him to do anything more than was already expected of him.

The fact that Dumbledore would give Snape the DADA position this year also bears out the idea that Dumbledore knew Snape would have to do something before the end of the year that would make it impossible for him to continue teaching at Hogwarts. Killing the Headmaster, in such a way that no one but Snape and Dumbledore knew the truth of what had happened or why, would certainly fall into that category.

Finally, the question of why Dumbledore trusts Snape, and why he did not tell McGonagall or any of the other faculty his reasons for trusting him (other than to continually affirm with them, as he has with Harry, that he does trust him and that he has good reason to do so) may well have to do with (much as I hate to say it) Lily Potter. Dumbledore tries to tell Harry that Snape was horrified when he found out that the Potters were going to be killed as a result of his reporting the prophecy to Voldemort -- "you have no idea of the remorse" and "the greatest regret of his life" are the phrases he uses. And of course, Harry doesn't believe him, because everybody knows (and Snape has reminded us frequently, including in this same book) that Snape hated James. When Harry later reports to this conversation to the Order, Remus has the same reaction, wondering how on earth Dumbledore could possibly fall for such a ruse when Snape's hatred for James was well known. But nobody in the book thinks about Lily, and what Snape's feelings may have been for her... [info]pharnabazus has some very interesting thoughts on the possible connection between Snape and Lily here.

If Snape had been secretly in love with or even just had a close friendship with Lily Potter, if he had worked closely with her and helped her with her studies (much as Hermione has done for Ron and Harry throughout the HP books), and Dumbledore knew this even though no one else did, that might indeed go quite some way to explaining why he had no doubt of Snape's integrity... but also why he never disclosed his reasons to anyone, since that would be an unforgivable betrayal of Snape's private confidence. Harry of all people perhaps has the right to know (which would be why Dumbledore visibly struggles with the impulse to tell him before lapsing back to his customary, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely" on pg. 513), but that will have to wait until Snape either confesses (unlikely) or Harry finds out the truth by some other means.

In any case, if Dumbledore's mysterious trust in Snape is borne out in Book Seven (and it seems very likely that it will be, given that we have had it reiterated in every single book of the series), then it follows that there was a good reason why Snape killed Dumbledore, and a means by which Snape's integrity and innocence (for killing a dying man who has made you swear to kill him in the interests of a higher cause and the saving of many other lives does not, I think, constitute murder in JKR's universe) may be ultimately vindicated. I believe that the idea of the liquid in the basin being the true horcrux -- possibly the Ravenclaw one (call it the Mirror of Rowena, if you like) -- would certainly cover all those bases, and account for the oddities in both Dumbledore and Snape's behaviour in a way that Harry's interpretation of events (namely, that Dumbledore drank the potion in vain only to find a fake horcrux, and that Snape is Ever So Evil) does not.
 
 
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( 132 comments — Leave a comment )
Dances With Vampires: Nadia -- between birthmark and stain[info]yahtzee63 on July 18th, 2005 10:18 pm (UTC)
I don't think Dumbledore could have drunk the horcrux, because RAB got there first. RAB got the original locket, and from this it stands to reason that he/she got it by also drinking the potion/having an accomplice drink it. (All elements appear to have been replaced as they were before, with the exception of the locket, as RAB's note suggests.) Therefore, even if the potion had been a horcrux to begin with, it would have been gotten rid of and replaced by something similarly horrifying (but by necessity not containing Voldemort's soul) long before Dumbledore ever got there.

I think Dumbledore was dying throughout HBP and knew it, as evidenced by his black and withered hand. I think Snape did murder Dumbledore at Dumbledore's request, but that this is why. (And to save Harry.) I also don't think the note is going to be a red herring, which it would have to be if the potion itself were the horcrux. In short, while Harry does (understandably) have the wrong end of the stick about Snape's killing of Dumbledore, I don't think the potion was a horcrux or that Snape's act had the effect of killing a part of Voldemort's oul.
R.J. Anderson: Snape Grace[info]rj_anderson on July 18th, 2005 10:29 pm (UTC)
But you've missed the part where I explained that RAB never got to the cave horcrux first, because he was never in the cave and could not have been in the cave (because he would have needed an accomplice to help him drink the potion and get past the Inferi after he'd drunk the potion, and the boat would only hold one adult wizard). RAB got the locket from his mother's house at Grimmauld Place (where Dumbledore found his replacement locket and note), not the cave. He probably never even knew of the existence of the cave.

The fake locket/note was certainly not a red herring in its original context -- it was left by Regulus in the trophy case for Voldemort or his followers to find after Regulus was dead. I believe that Dumbledore merely used the locket for his own purposes by dropping it into the basin once he reached the cave, primarily to keep Harry from guessing what was really going on (lest he blame himself for "killing" Dumbledore). But all this is already in the essay, so I'm repeating myself.

If the "obvious" reading of the text is true -- that RAB got to the basin first, drained it, stole the true locket, put the fake locket and note in there, and replaced the liquid with something else before taking off -- then Dumbledore died for nothing, and somehow I just don't see JKR going that route.
(no subject) - [info]yahtzee63 on July 18th, 2005 10:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rj_anderson on July 18th, 2005 10:55 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]yahtzee63 on July 18th, 2005 11:05 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]necessaryspace on July 18th, 2005 11:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rj_anderson on July 19th, 2005 11:59 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sibylle on July 18th, 2005 11:47 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sibylle on July 18th, 2005 11:49 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ptyx on July 19th, 2005 05:08 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rj_anderson on July 20th, 2005 12:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]szee03 on July 20th, 2005 06:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Autumnmist[info]autumnmist on July 18th, 2005 10:46 pm (UTC)
While I was reading the book, it occurred to me that the liquid/potion could actually be the harvested and cursed blood of a particular person Voldemort killed...
R.J. Anderson: Snape Grace[info]rj_anderson on July 18th, 2005 10:59 pm (UTC)
Hm. I think Harry would have told us if it looked or behaved anything like blood. From what he tells us it was emerald green and opaque, but basically watery rather than viscous. Plus, the people Voldemort killed (or at least a good many of them) seem to have become the Inferi in the water.

It is possible that Dumbledore was unwittingly drinking the soul-essence of someone other than Voldemort, someone who had feelings of guilt and shame and concern for others. But I'm not sure who that person would be or how/why their essence would get into the basin.
(no subject) - [info]sodzilla on July 19th, 2005 01:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Risti[info]risti on July 18th, 2005 11:28 pm (UTC)
I can't claim credit for this, as someone(although I don't remember who) mentioned it to me.

Kreacher.

Not a full wizard, certainly, but with definate powers of his own.

We don't know when Mrs. Black died in the grand scheme of things, but I've always beleived that she started to go around the bend and took a turn for the worse soon after Sirius ran away from home. If Regulus had control of Kreacher (as Harry now does), he would have had a second person to come with him into the caves.

What's more, let's not forget that Regulus is a Slytherin - pointed out for certain in this book - while Dumbledore and Harry are Gryffindors. The Gryffindor way to solve a puzzle is to tackle it head on yourself. The Slytherin way might be to look out for yourself. What I'm suggesting here is that Regulus may have made Kreacher drink the potion, or do some other nasty task that partially led to the insanity that plagues him now.

Then again, there is my other theory, which I posted in my "7 theories for the 7th Book" on my journal, which is another alternative all together.

You could very well be right. I do definately think there was something odd about that potion(and I also believe we could see more Horcruxes in the end than those we know), but I think we're approaching this from different angles. You are assuming Dumbledore knows more than he appears to, whereas I can't help but feel that at some point in the seventh book, we're going to learn that he was wrong about at least one small but significant point.
Kizmet[info]kizmet_42 on July 19th, 2005 12:03 am (UTC)
OOTP says that Mrs. Black has been dead ten years at that time.

OOTP, US edition, page 102

Mrs. Weasley says
...what that house-elf's been doing for the last ten years--"

(no subject) - [info]emily_anne on July 20th, 2005 06:15 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Malabud[info]malabud on July 18th, 2005 11:39 pm (UTC)
*bows*

Truly this is an astounding piece of interpretation. It gives true meaning to Dumbledore's death, beyond just securing Snape an unassailable place in the Death Eater ranks. I think that is what attracts me to this theory the most. Without some significance to the potion he drank, Dumbledore's death is essentially meaningless.

So, if we follow this theory, then four of the six Horcruxes have been destroyed: the Diary, the Ring, the Locket, and Ravenclaw's Potion. All that is left are Hufflepuff's Cup and Nagini, plus Voldemort himself, of course. All Harry really has to do now is find the Cup, because Nagini is with Voldemort.

I note with some interest that at no time has Voldemort had all six Horcruxes in existence. The Diary at least was destroyed before he ever created Horcrux number six in Nagini.

You have answered all the questions I thought of from your first post on this subject. I think the fact that Snape finally got the DADA teaching position is key. Why else would Dumbledore give it to Snape? It appears that Voldemort's curse not only forces the DADA professors to leave the position after a year or less, each leaves the school completely, whether dead, incapacitated, under a cloud of suspicion, or just plain fleeing the school. According to the curse's pattern, Snape could not have returned to teaching Potions in year seven. Dumbledore must have known this, as did Snape.

(I linked to this essay from my first post-HBP journal entry.)
[info]_regina on July 20th, 2005 04:32 am (UTC)
I note with some interest that at no time has Voldemort had all six Horcruxes in existence. The Diary at least was destroyed before he ever created Horcrux number six in Nagini.

You know, it occurs to me now that Voldemort probably knows about the diary being destroyed, since Harry gave it back to Lucius visibly damaged. Wouldn't it make sense for Voldemort to make yet another Horcrux, knowing that one had been destroyed?
(no subject) - [info]lump_of_clay on July 24th, 2005 03:14 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous) on December 17th, 2005 04:55 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous) on August 1st, 2005 12:29 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rj_anderson on August 3rd, 2005 09:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Erin: HBP![info]rose_in_shadow on July 18th, 2005 11:42 pm (UTC)
*fangirls*

I've already posted this link at two separate HBP discussion places so the movement can be spread.

:D
Kizmet[info]kizmet_42 on July 18th, 2005 11:57 pm (UTC)
No, Dumbledore did not die for nothing: I refer you to your own fic for one explanation of the consequences of AD's death.

I posit that the horcrux was indeed stolen by Kreacher and RAB (Black, presumably.) Kreacher, as an elf, would not be recognized in the pure-blooded bigotry as worthy of consideration, and could assist RAB in his retrieval of the locket. I think that the bowl was probably self-maintaining: should someone try to empty it by draining or by even drinking some of it, it produce enough more potion to refill to protect the horcrux from the next intruder. I think that the potion is not the horcrux, but a hallucinary potion that would presumably cause visions that would discourage or drive away any lone thief.

Why would Dumbledore put such a red herring as that note into the necklace. He has to know that he has limited time if he's arranged for his assassination at Snape's/Draco's hands. Why would he send Harry off on a wild goose chase? If Harry thinks that there is another horcrux (held by or hopefully destroyed by RAB), he will be forced to search for it before ever attempting to face Voldemort because Harry has no chance of success until every horcrux is destroyed.

Regulus Black's defection from the Death Eaters is still an open case. Sirius admits he knows nothing of it. The only one likely to tell Harry/the Order the truth about Regulus just went into hiding. Unless Harry is able to master Occulmency and Legilimens, JKR has a real task in telling us the truth about Regulus' motives and death.
R.J. Anderson: GHW - art by Anneth[info]rj_anderson on July 19th, 2005 12:19 am (UTC)
But my fic posits something that JKR isn't positing, or at least hasn't given us any sign of being true so far -- the idea that Dumbledore's willing sacrifice would protect the students and teachers of Hogwarts. For one thing, that theory depended on him dying at the hands of Voldemort, not Snape.

Why would Dumbledore put such a red herring as that note into the necklace.

Dumbledore didn't put the note in the necklace; Regulus did, when leaving the fake locket back at Grimmauld Place with the expectation that Voldemort would find it one day and be appropriately chagrined.

Also, it wouldn't/won't take much for Harry to find the real locket, since it's in the house he inherited. Which is very likely why Dumbledore put it back there in the first place, while also making sure Harry received the fake version and the note Regulus left therein. Thanks to that note, Harry now knows that the locket horcrux has been destroyed, even if Dumbledore wasn't the one who destroyed it. So there's really no wild goose chase for Harry to go on.
(no subject) - [info]pharnabazus on July 19th, 2005 06:24 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rj_anderson on July 20th, 2005 12:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
[info]githzerai on July 19th, 2005 12:06 am (UTC)
One thing that's niggling at me-Dumbledore implies that the DADA position really is cursed. That it was the work of Voldemort.

Wrong time to put a certain person in that position and test the theory.
R.J. Anderson: Snape Grace[info]rj_anderson on July 19th, 2005 12:23 am (UTC)
He wasn't testing the theory: he already knew the position was genuinely cursed. That's why he didn't put Snape in that position until the very year that he knew Snape would have to leave Hogwarts anyway.

The curse seems to have been merely that no one would last in that position for more than a year. It did not, apparently, necessarily cause harm to the person involved (see: Remus, who left Hogwarts unscathed), although it certainly gave them bad luck, as it were. I am quite sure Dumbledore knew that Snape could take care of himself, as Remus had done (and it would seem Umbridge did too, in the end).
(no subject) - [info]githzerai on July 19th, 2005 12:26 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rj_anderson on July 19th, 2005 12:29 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]githzerai on July 19th, 2005 02:16 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rj_anderson on July 20th, 2005 12:13 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]likethemodel on July 20th, 2005 11:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Chem TA Toni: Half-Blood Prince[info]sannalim on July 19th, 2005 12:19 am (UTC)
Leave it to RJA to figure out a way to articulate what was in my brain only a vague, slightly unsettled feeling that Snape just CAN'T be Teh Evol, can he? ;D

Altogether very interesting. I guess we'll see in another couple of years how close to the Heart Of It All this theory is.

**adds to memories**
[info]hms_yowling on July 19th, 2005 12:46 am (UTC)
Whether the liquid or the locket
was the horcrux is less interesting to me than whether Dumbledore created a horcrux of his own, and *that's* the true reason behind his withered hand. This would fit in with your "Dumbledore as phoenix theory," and also, possibly, explain why Dumbledore's portrait appears to be sleeping.

The liquid being the horcrux has and advantage in terms of storytelling, however, esp. if Dumbledore anticipated it. It means that Dumbledore created a horcrux not just to escape death, but to ensure that the surviving portion of his soul (within the horcrux object, and if a horcrux can be an animal, I'm betting on Firenze) to remain "untainted" by exposure to Voldemort's.

I'm betting that Harry's going to be accompanied on his quest to destroy the horcruxes by Firenze.

The problem that presents itself, if the both the potion *and* the locket are (destroyed) horcruxes, is that Harry now thinks there's one more horcrux in existence than there actually is.

Also: elsewhere, based on the "horcruxes can be made inadvertantly" evidence, I've seen it theorized that Harry, himself is a horcrux. What do you think?
R.J. Anderson[info]rj_anderson on July 19th, 2005 01:08 am (UTC)
Re: Whether the liquid or the locket
For Dumbledore to create a horcrux, he would have had to commit cold-blooded murder. Horcruxes are Dark magic of a particularly pernicious sort. So I really don't think that Dumbledore created one, inadvertently or not.

And what is the evidence that horcruxes can be made inadvertently? I've seen people arguing that Harry is a horcrux, but his existence/survival after being AK'd by Voldemort does not prove that he is a horcrux, only that he survived for a reason we don't understand yet. Only if one assumes from the start that Harry is a horcrux does his existence/survival indicate that horcruxes can be created inadvertently.
(no subject) - [info]yahtzee63 on July 20th, 2005 01:15 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rj_anderson on July 20th, 2005 01:29 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mara_3333 on July 20th, 2005 08:43 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]likethemodel on July 20th, 2005 11:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]likethemodel on July 20th, 2005 11:26 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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Lori: phb[info]zakhad on July 19th, 2005 03:43 am (UTC)
I think it's fair to say Dumbledore's far ahead of the game. Example: If we go on the premise that Snape is acting under Dumbledore's orders the whole time, of course Dumbledore knows Draco is supposed to kill him - Snape told him. And rather than allow Snape's status to deteriorate when Draco failed and Snape did not follow through to complete the Plan, Dumbledore chose to go forward into death and solidify Snape's usefulness as a double agent. The conversation with Narcissa could be read as Snape taking advantage of the situation and plumbing for confirmation of suspicions Dumbledore had as to Voldie's agenda. The Unbreakable Vow isn't a problem; of course Dumbledore is a target, because he's a) protecting Harry and b) probably the greatest foe Voldie has, until Harry has learned enough to be a real danger, so contingency plans are already in place -- if Voldie hopes to get to Harry it has to be through Dumbledore. A move against Dumbledore makes sense in the sixth year -- with each successive failure to kill/enslave Harry, Voldie's probably grown more desparate to do something before Harry's graduation.

Forcing Draco's hand by confronting the issue when Harry tells Dumbledore about his suspicions would have been premature. Dumbledore wanted it done with Death Eaters and all, with plenty of witnesses, and to let Voldie and sundry evils believe that they had triumphed and truly had the upper hand, plus that Snape was verifiably not a Dumbledore man (supposedly) because of course, if he were, he would have stopped Draco instead of finishing the job.

Dumbledore is choosing very carefully when and how he reveals things to Harry, because the kids are not yet wise and mature enough to control themselves in ways that will keep secrets from experienced evil wizards, and there are plenty of things to come in book seven -- all carefully timed to give Harry what he needs. Possibly that will include an explanation of why Snape is trustworthy. Possibly, Snape swore an Unbreakable or three to Dumbledore, including the act of killing him rather than allowing the enemy to destroy him.

I wondered if the liquid weren't memories/souls of people Voldemort had destroyed, stored up for his perverse pleasure along with the horcrux. From what we saw of Voldie's childhood, he seemed to be the definition of a sociopath, and they just don't have any remorse or empathy for anyone. What better barrier for an item one wishes to be kept safe than the accumulated sufferings of the innocent? Further, perhaps allowing any of Voldie's true minions would have resulted in Dumbledore's soul being siphoned off as well. Perhaps he took the liquid and then had Snape do the deed, thus releasing all of them and depriving Voldie of a trophy, plus his collection.

Meandering off again now....
Fabio Paolo Barbieri[info]fpb on July 19th, 2005 06:51 am (UTC)
You forget one thing about Dumbledore being Voldemort's worst enemy: Narcissa as good as says that Voldemort has already tried to murder Dumbledore and failed. It does not sound as though she refers to the open battle in the Ministry, either, since the whole context is one of murder by stealth.
(no subject) - [info]lyorn on July 20th, 2005 11:46 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mara_3333 on July 20th, 2005 05:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on July 19th, 2005 06:25 am (UTC)
Half-Blood Prince
Though I've always been a fan of Snape, I'm afraid JKR really means he's evil. From the title of Book 6 we know that the Half-Blood Prince is the key. So who is he? Teenager Severus, greatly gifted and drawned towards potions and Dark Arts. When Snape shouts at Harry at the end of the Book (chapter "Flight of the Prince") that he IS the Half-Blood Prince, it sounds like JKR is saying Snape hasn't changed. He is still attracted by Dark Arts, only he has grown up and obviously become a very powerful wizard.
As for the "revulsion and hatred" when he kills Dumbledore, the idea that those feelings are meant for himself makes sense, but what about that : Snape has been playing a part with Dumbledore all along, and sometimes he's been feeling "sorry", but seeing Dumbledore weak is like seeing himself weakened by the man he's been forced to obey and show respect, and killing Dumbledore is a way of freeing himself of that influence, of choosing the Dark side that allows him to express his true nature and powers.
Anyway, loved your theory, though I'm convinced you're torturing the book to save your (my...) favorite character. JKR never let any red herring at the end of a book before, things are always solved and I think she really intends to show Harry being right in this one (cf. Malfoy...).
Tjaele Rising[info]zweelum on July 19th, 2005 10:18 pm (UTC)
Re: Half-Blood Prince
I thought so too, but by the middle of the book, we often have a few red herrings. And didn't JKR say that the sixth and seventh books were like two halves of one book? So Harry being right about Malfoy could have been a red herring, because we'd think he was right about everything else. Like Evil!Snape.
(no subject) - [info]rj_anderson on July 20th, 2005 12:17 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lyorn on July 20th, 2005 11:53 am (UTC) (Expand)
[info]mara_3333 on July 19th, 2005 08:42 am (UTC)
Love the theory and it does seem to fit in with the way JKR's mind works.

I just cant see Harry destroying 3 Horcruxes plus Voldemort in one year - does not seem ossible to me, esp as he has to find out the location of 2 of them.

I must admit that that bit at the beginning when DD makes sure that Harry returns to the Dirsleys suprised me , now I understand the reason for it - DD knew he was going to die sometime that year.

That cleaning bit in OotP always had me wondering what was significant about it - know we know. The necklace was there, but the twist is that the Horcrux has been destroyed.

The crucial question is how is Harry going to realise all of this, 'cos he has never been adept at jumping to the right conclusion. Who, apart from DD, knew about the Horcruxes etc...

JKR has said that an Order member that we iknow about but not really seen will play a part in HP 7 - maybe that will be Aberforth. Plus she implied that Fawkes would also be in HP 7. Maybe the combination of those will enable Harry to understand what DD was up to during his final year, and what Severus' role really was.

Cant wait for HP 7 to see your ideas proced correct.
[info]mara_3333 on July 19th, 2005 03:02 pm (UTC)
Sorry for changing subkect, but part 1 of the interview with JKR by Emmerson of Mugglenet and Melissa of The Leaky Cauldron is available, it talks anout Snape, DD and Lily :

MA: OK, big big big book six question. Is Snape evil?
JKR: [Almost laughing] Well, you've read the book, what do you think?
ES: She's trying to make you say it categorically.
MA: Well, there are conspiracy theorists, and there are people who will claim -
JKR: Cling to some desperate hope [laughter] -
ES: Yes!
MA: Yes!
ES: Like certain shippers we know!
[All laugh]
JKR: Well, okay, I'm obviously – Harry-Snape is now as personal, if not more so, than Harry-Voldemort. I can't answer that question because it's a spoiler, isn't it, whatever I say, and obviously, it has such a huge impact on what will happen when they meet again that I can't. And let's face it, it's going to launch 10,000 theories and I'm going to get a big kick out of reading them so [laughs] I'm evil but I just like the theories, I love the theories.
ES: I know Dumbledore likes to see the good in people but he seems trusting almost to the point of recklessness sometimes.
[Laughter] Yes, I would agree. I would agree.
ES: How can someone so -
JKR: Intelligent -
ES: be so blind with regard to certain things?
JKR: Well, there is information on that to come, in seven. But I would say that I think it has been demonstrated, particularly in books five and six that immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes and I think Dumbledore really exemplifies that. In fact, I would tend to think that being very, very intelligent might create some problems and it has done for Dumbledore, because his wisdom has isolated him, and I think you can see that in the books, because where is his equal, where is his confidante, where is his partner? He has none of those things. He’s always the one who gives, he’s always the one who has the insight and has the knowledge. So I think that, while I ask the reader to accept that McGonagall is a very worthy second in command, she is not an equal. You have a slightly circuitous answer, but I can't get much closer than that.
ES: No, that was a good answer.
MA: It's interesting about Dumbledore being lonely.
JKR: I see him as isolated, and a few people have said to me rightly I think, that he is detached. My sister said to me in a moment of frustration, it was when Hagrid was shut up in his house after Rita Skeeter had published that he was a half-breed, and my sister said to me, “Why didn't Dumbledore go down earlier, why didn't Dumbledore go down earlier?” I said he really had to let Hagrid stew for a while and see if he was going to come out of this on his own because if he had come out on his own he really would have been better. "Well he's too detached, he's too cold, it's like you,” she said!" [Laughter] By which she meant that where she would immediately rush in and I would maybe stand back a little bit and say, “Let's wait and see if he can work this out.” I wouldn't leave him a week. I'd leave him maybe an afternoon. But she would chase him into the hut.

Amy idea what to make of that 'cling to some desperate hope' comment. Is she implying that Snape is evil, or what ?
(no subject) - [info]rj_anderson on July 20th, 2005 12:22 am (UTC) (Expand)
Winter Dragon[info]winter_dragona on July 19th, 2005 04:08 pm (UTC)
I agree with a lot of what you've written, but I seriously doubt that Dumbledore leads Harry astray about what he believes to be the Horcrux. What does it accomplish? If the potion is a Horcrux, why shouldn't Harry know?

While I think Dumbledore knew the axe would fall at some point - Draco's pretty clever, and eventually would be put in a situation to succeed in his mission - I don't think he knew exactly when. I think he wanted Harry to get Snape to help contain the Dark effects of the potion (Snape, after all, was the one who treated his withered hand, too). But when he heard the footsteps, he realized the time had come, and did what he could to ensure Harry's survival, Draco's redemption, and the protection of Hogwarts (my predictions for Book 7
R.J. Anderson: Snape Portrait[info]rj_anderson on July 20th, 2005 12:25 am (UTC)
If the potion is a Horcrux, why shouldn't Harry know?

This is addressed in the essay, so you might want to look again. There are any number of reasons why Dumbledore wouldn't want Harry to know what was going on... at least not right away. Of course, that doesn't mean that in Book 7 we won't find that Dumbledore found some way of leaving a message for Harry, or pointing him to someone who can tell him what he needs to know.
(no subject) - [info]winter_dragona on July 20th, 2005 03:54 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]grand_sealink on July 20th, 2005 05:40 am (UTC) (Expand)
RapturedRival[info]modestmaya on July 19th, 2005 05:25 pm (UTC)
very interesting. Lots of things were covered in depth that I didn't even think of. I still am hoping that part of my theory about Dumbledore's staging his own death is correct... because he was just amazing. :(
Bagheera[info]bagheera_san on July 19th, 2005 06:34 pm (UTC)
It is possible that Regulus was a protégé of Dumbledore's all along, always intended to act as a spy in the Death Eater camp -- a sort of predecessor of Severus Snape. Whee! I wrote a fic like that not long ago (in which Regulus was also a zombie, but... ah, well)

So, as Dumbledore mutters unknown phrases over the potion and makes passes over it with his wand, he either Summons, or simply drops out of his sleeve, Regulus's false locket. The idea of Dumbledore muttering nonsense and dropping the locket like some kind of muggle magician just cracks me up! XD
R.J. Anderson: GHW - art by Anneth[info]rj_anderson on July 19th, 2005 11:58 pm (UTC)
I wrote a fic like that not long ago (in which Regulus was also a zombie, but... ah, well)

Braaaaaaaains!

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
悲劇は目蓋を下ろした優しき鬱[info]polygonia on July 20th, 2005 12:07 am (UTC)
Good points
Unrelated, but do you have synesthesia too?
I do like your points.
R.J. Anderson: Sawyer by littleasianpixi[info]rj_anderson on July 20th, 2005 12:22 am (UTC)
Re: Good points
Alas no, as you can read in my user info. Just a sad wannabe. :)
unidentified[info]straussmonster on July 20th, 2005 12:47 am (UTC)
It's very interesting. I think it's entirely too convoluted, and it makes Dumbledore too smooth, a little too sharp at having all of his plans work out. It's a little too close to Puppetmaster!Dumbledore.

Are all the hints dropped throughout the book about when Dumbledore makes mistakes they're doozies just misdirection, then? When you get something reiterated in varied ways like that, you expect at least some fallout from it. I think also of the TLC interview just posted today:

ES: I know Dumbledore likes to see the good in people but he seems trusting almost to the point of recklessness sometimes.

[Laughter] Yes, I would agree. I would agree.

ES: How can someone so -

JKR: Intelligent -

ES: be so blind with regard to certain things?

JKR: Well, there is information on that to come, in seven. But I would say that I think it has been demonstrated, particularly in books five and six that immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes and I think Dumbledore really exemplifies that.

Could be referring solely to a number of his mistakes with Harry; but could be referring to other things as well.
R.J. Anderson: Snape Portrait[info]rj_anderson on July 20th, 2005 01:02 am (UTC)
Oh, there's no question that Dumbledore does make mistakes, and I fully expect we're going to see some of them in Book Seven. But they do tend to be emotional mistakes, of the kind that he admitted to CAPSLOCK!Harry in OotP -- trying to shelter people from painful knowledge they really need to have (his mistake with not telling Harry about the prophecy) or trying to force people he cares about to make peace with each other (his mistake in pushing Harry and Snape together in the Occlumency lessons). He also seems to be something of a sentimentalist when it comes to picking up "lame ducks" -- people like Trelawney and Remus and yes, Snape, who are misfits with serious social problems of one kind or another. He doesn't like to see needy, lonely people left out in the cold.

However, the very shrewd way in which Dumbledore handled Tom Riddle seems to me to indicate that his judgment of people's moral character or trustworthiness is in no way impaired by his sentiments. He obviously cared about Tom and wanted to help him, but as he says to Harry, he knew better than to trust him or be deceived by Tom's charm and seemingly reformed behaviour at school. And he also recognized Slughorn's faults just as clearly as his virtues, and forewarned Harry about him. So I find it hard to believe that he could somehow have been deceived by Snape, who has never possessed any kind of charm and never pretended to be anything but a harsh, bitter man who sometimes disagrees with Dumbledore's policies.
(no subject) - [info]straussmonster on July 20th, 2005 01:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rj_anderson on July 20th, 2005 01:24 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]straussmonster on July 20th, 2005 02:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]katiemorris on July 20th, 2005 12:53 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]straussmonster on July 20th, 2005 01:42 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rj_anderson on July 20th, 2005 05:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]katiemorris on July 21st, 2005 06:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]straussmonster on July 21st, 2005 07:39 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]katiemorris on July 21st, 2005 07:45 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]straussmonster on July 21st, 2005 07:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - [info]lovehotel on July 28th, 2005 05:31 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Karmabella Zephyrsparkle Nott: Bellatrix??[info]karaz on July 20th, 2005 02:32 am (UTC)
The only thing I have issue with is the locket no longer being a Horcrux. Harry is going to try to find it. I think Jo included that bit with Mungdungus stealing and selling the Black property because it will come into play when Harry tries to get the locket. I.E. did Mung fence it? If not the locket - then what else would be at the Black house?
R.J. Anderson: GHW - art by Anneth[info]rj_anderson on July 20th, 2005 02:46 am (UTC)
I'm not sure Harry would bother trying to find a horcrux (in this case, the locket) which R.A.B. clearly states in his note has already been destroyed. Though I guess "I have stolen the real horcrux and intend to destroy it as soon as I can" doesn't absolutely guarantee that R.A.B. did destroy it...
[info]dphearson on July 20th, 2005 03:06 am (UTC)
I can agree fully with everything here, as a plausible argument, except for the Lily part.

Given the way the Young!Snape spoke to her in the Pensieve scene (OOTP), I think it highly unlikely that snape was in love with her or wante dto be her boyfriend.. It's like saying Draco is in love with ermione, after all.

Not likely.

R.J. Anderson: GHW - art by Anneth[info]rj_anderson on July 20th, 2005 05:44 pm (UTC)
Think of it this way: imagine that thanks to Slughorn's Club, Snape and Lily have become secretly close friends, helping each other to discover new Potions and Charms. But of course, neither one dares acknowledge the other in public, as Gryffindors and Slytherins simply don't fraternize. Now, one day, we have the "Snape's Worst Memory" scene where James uses one of Snape and Lily's own unspoken spells to suspend Snape in the air. Snape immediately comes to the horrifying conclusion that Lily has betrayed his confidence to his worst enemy -- plus he is now in the utterly humiliating position of being upside down with his underpants showing in front of Lily and her friends, something that would make any teenaged boy angry and defensive. So when Lily tries to intervene -- humiliating him still further, because the last thing he wants is to have to be rescued from MWPP by a girl -- he lashes out at her with the worst insult he can think of, "Mudblood".

Lily, naturally, is shocked and angry -- especially as she (probably) had not knowingly betrayed Snape's confidence to James at all. So she retaliates in kind, and this incident marks the end of Snape and Lily's once-close friendship.

I think all those things would most definitely explain why this incident is "Snape's Worst Memory". Especially if he found out later that Lily was innocent of betraying his trust, and that he had called her such a horrible name without cause and thus destroyed the best and only true friendship he had ever known.

Snape wouldn't even have had to be in love with Lily for all this to be the case... although I wouldn't be surprised if he had been.
beadslut: locket[info]beadslut on July 20th, 2005 03:38 am (UTC)
I like your theory, let me add a thought. It is possible that Regulus was given the task of placing the locket horcrux in the birdbath of doom, and in the process replaced it with a false locket.

That would explain both his turn from the DEs and his subsequent death.

mysterymeg[info]mysterymeg on July 20th, 2005 02:28 pm (UTC)
*giggle*
Birdbath of Doom....*dies* That has to be an icon.

--Meg
(no subject) - [info]serenasnape on July 20th, 2005 04:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]orodwen on November 8th, 2005 04:16 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rj_anderson on July 20th, 2005 05:35 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]beadslut on July 20th, 2005 07:45 pm (UTC) (Expand)
[info]kagiri on July 20th, 2005 04:22 am (UTC)
Wow. Nice theory--I like it. Seems more plausible than many others I've stumbled across so far. The Lily idea fits too.
Sreya: Book Discussion - Fernwithy Quote[info]sreya on July 20th, 2005 09:33 am (UTC)
Nicely thought out! I do have one discomforting thought, though. Unless somehow Dumbledore left a message for Harry about the horcruxes - and it seems he would have tried to make it obvious that Harry should be looking for such a message, or made certain it would be delivered to him as quickly as possible - then Dumbledore has now left Harry to look for the wrong number of horcruxes. If there are 6, Harry knows that the diary and the ring are destroyed, and is looking for at least 3 more, and confirmation of the 4th, the locket. But according to yours, there are only 2 more horcruxes, which Dumbledore would have known, and this seems pretty darned important to make sure Harry knows. It wouldn't do much good for Harry to waste time looking for horcruxes that are already destroyed!
Nobody tells me anything[info]katiemorris on July 20th, 2005 12:49 pm (UTC)
I think looking for four of these things would take up an awful lot of story in the final book - if it isn't to be the size of OotP AND GoF together. If Harry finds two, believes there are still two more to find, and then is forced into an early confrontation with Voldemort (or at least HE thinks it is early), it will make for quite a surprise for him (and the ordinary readers who haven't figured this out) to find that he can actually do the deed and dispose of Mr. Baddy.
(no subject) - [info]rj_anderson on July 20th, 2005 03:51 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rj_anderson on July 20th, 2005 05:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]katiemorris on July 21st, 2005 07:03 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Nobody tells me anything: wordscan by Copperbadge[info]katiemorris on July 20th, 2005 01:01 pm (UTC)
Brillinat. Bloody brilliant idea. And my God, it's well thought out. Go you! I hadn't picked up on the words Dumbledore was saying when he was being forced to take the potion - read the book too quickly of course and haven't got as far as that in my second read - but it certainly sounds as if he's ingesting something more than just a mildly poisonous liquid.

You've managed to argue the whole setup very well and I have no idea if it is true or not, but it's a marvellous theory and I've put it in my memories and will pimp it around as much as possible.

Interestingly, I'd already come up with the "Snape loves Lilly" idea - it's at the end of my HBP review on my journal as it really seems to make sense to me. Nowhere in the books is it even hinted that he might have liked her, but instead we are forcefed his hatred of James. The one time he calls her a filthy mudblood he must have been writhing with embarrassment and seething with hatred for James at putting him in such a horrendous position in front of her. So he spat the words as a defence mechanism. It's possible. Crikey, anything is possible in these books.

Thanks for posting this. I've loved all the comments as well.
Ebonlock: Regulus[info]ebonlock on July 20th, 2005 04:04 pm (UTC)
Finally, the question of why Dumbledore trusts Snape, and why he did not tell McGonagall or any of the other faculty his reasons for trusting him (other than to continually affirm with them, as he has with Harry, that he does trust him and that he has good reason to do so) may well have to do with (much as I hate to say it) Lily Potter.

Yeah, it does fit, though I too have a little trouble swallowing it. And yes it seems very likely that Snape helped her in Potions (note that Slughorn attributes Harry's excellence in the class to his mom rather than Severus, who really should've come to mind first and has been teaching the kid for 5 years now). Indeed I suspect that on some occasions he may even have allowed her to take the credit for some of his inventions, making her Slughorn's favorite. This fits with the behavior of the smart outsider who knows he's never going to get the most popular girl in school, but loves her anyway.

And yeah it does explain how the spells that he created might have migrated to the Marauders without them being aware of who had created them. If Lily kept this confidence all through her life that does suggest at least some degree of loyalty to Snape.

His quest for redemption (which I believe he's still on) then makes sense. It's not exactly the answer I would've preferred, but it's logical and fits the evidence we've had in books one through six.
a body surrounding a song: flowers[info]ceresi on July 20th, 2005 05:07 pm (UTC)
I'm not sure about the potion-as-a-horcrux, for pretty much one reason -- if it was, why didn't Dumbledore just pour it out? I assumed that there was some kind of permanent Refilling Charm on the basin (like the one Harry used on Slughorn's and Hagrid's glasses) that would sense if the potion wasn't being drunk and refill as needed. I doubt a Refilling Charm would work on a piece of someone's soul, though.

But I like the theory anyway. The idea that Dumbledore took part of Riddle's soul into himself and then destroyed it is very poignant, and gives hope to the idea that, if Harry is a horcrux, he can destroy the LV-soulbit inside himself as well.
R.J. Anderson: Snape Portrait[info]rj_anderson on July 20th, 2005 05:24 pm (UTC)
why didn't Dumbledore just pour it out?

Because Dumbledore tells Harry right at the beginning that the stuff in the basin cannot be poured out, diluted, or tampered with in any way. I see no reason to believe he was lying about that (or, indeed, anything that he actually told Harry). But even if he had been able to pour out the horcrux, that would not have destroyed it -- only transferred it to a different location.
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